Very interesting and provocative idea. It's clear that some women prefer the current state of affairs in cultural Islam. My read of the situation is that, while living in an inherently patriarchal society (here I'm referring to laws of inheritance that favor males and cultural norms and practices along those lines, etc.), some muslim women have done what they can to subvert that using less than explicit means while generally staying within the bounds of sharia. Quite effectively, as you've pointed out.
Yes, exactly. The power of a woman is letting a man think he’s got the power when indirectly, and in every way that matters, she is the one that actually has the power. Consider how a woman is her man’s greatest expense. That alone should ring alarm bells.
I think you made some very persuasive points in this article - definitely food for thought. I don't know enough to say how correct you are but I imagine no one will say you are way off the mark. Things are normally not black and white anyways.
Thank you for your comment. Yes, indeed, things aren’t black and white. If the tone of the article implied that, it’s not the intention. Rather, it’s to stress this particular perspective. The cartoon you shared sure does provide perspective
Sorry I think my comment could have been a little clearer.
No the tone of the article didn't imply things weren't black and white. I guess what I was trying to say was that even if not all Muslim woman were operating the way described by you, I reckon there is in any event a large amount of it going on because the arguments you have put forward makes a lot of sense.
My thinking on hijab (in whatever form and insofar as I gave it much thought) used to be that it serves two main psychosocial purposes.
First is its role among women. It protects the fragile vanity of the aged and ugly by levelling differences in appearance among fertile women and making them harder to separate visually from the non-fertile. This lessens (or in cases of full hijab mostly removes) competition for male attention, increasing intergenerational and interaesthetic female solidarity by reducing destructive female gossip-mongering.
Second is its effect on men. It keeps competition for women under control in societies where polygamy is traditional, long predating Islam. In such socieities male competition for the females left over after the Big Man has taken his harem has the potential to result in catastrophic social upheaval. As in the case of women, hijab secures male cohesion.
This piece has, however, made me think again about the function of hijab and other things besides--many thanks.
Yes, thank you for noticing. Many of the insights here are original (as far as I know). They are less like statements and more like calls for discussion and consideration.
As you put it, Islam protects the fragile vanity of insecure women. It levels everything, and does not allow free competition. Reminds you of something? It begins with ‘c’ and ends with ‘ommunism’.
This text is too long (I must translate it to understand) to comment in detail your theory, I will be brief.
I share some of the text, but I would have been more nuanced, you omitted the conditioning from childhood, an important component in an analysis of this kind. Having lived some time in the middle of this culture (and religion), I can say that not all women are feminists, nor jealous of the beauty of others. Indeed, some use strategies related to Islam for less glorious interests, and mothers have an important role in the transfer of its interests. However, depending on the personality, it is not too difficult to get rid of conditioning that does not suit us. So there is an abuse of power by men over women, but your presentation is valid as well.
Jealousy exists everywhere, strategies are different, separations more numerous in other cultures.
I absolutely do not share feminism, differences exist, and are wonderful, rights on the other hand, must be defended at all and for all. I find your theory too categorical, Let us do justice to the women of all nations, not using these schemes to mask the beauty of women, and not wishing their psychological imprisonment. Liberation, goodness etc. often first passes through outbursts of all kinds, and even more if one has been restricted in physical or intellectual expression. So if communism there is, it is not generalized, to the point of almost condemning all women in Islam or its environment.
Apart from that, I appreciated welle your presentation, well written but lacking a little objectivity.
only thing I would like to argue is that I have noticed some patterns of resistance from some muslims to the word dictatorship/reserve currency elite logistics
gulf wars, terrorist imposed stigma, and some deaths of politicians are some of these patterns
I have the impression that they are a little bit smarter than the westerners for this reason
Very interesting and provocative idea. It's clear that some women prefer the current state of affairs in cultural Islam. My read of the situation is that, while living in an inherently patriarchal society (here I'm referring to laws of inheritance that favor males and cultural norms and practices along those lines, etc.), some muslim women have done what they can to subvert that using less than explicit means while generally staying within the bounds of sharia. Quite effectively, as you've pointed out.
Yes, exactly. The power of a woman is letting a man think he’s got the power when indirectly, and in every way that matters, she is the one that actually has the power. Consider how a woman is her man’s greatest expense. That alone should ring alarm bells.
I think you made some very persuasive points in this article - definitely food for thought. I don't know enough to say how correct you are but I imagine no one will say you are way off the mark. Things are normally not black and white anyways.
Sidenote :your article made me think of this cartoon (sorry if I clean up link it doesn't work, not sure why) - https://www.open.edu/openlearn/cc/ef/ccefa439e94572f403068eb563ee3455ddce7c9f?response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22a332_ol_f4.jpg%22&response-content-type=image%2Fjpeg&Expires=1722264480&Signature=Qcns4e2J5O6c957bQL9Eos9gM3txP8B-XXiUyah7YIwMYO~8zqVI3ESE154JYag774393HgL~sWdgXuFqHOWAFKBt9jKd0CLqppwF7PcbAlY0Iw-n1poP97jOBEpmQQSXa1dhLitbs3NsHk-qmyXjm7oLY7ofjAmBjDw9jqa-RWGWlbZoAdJlVUjzQ4wklnkn2zJcKa9CYq2sp7S13nqHkDOw0DrCzMdVty5jOYGuOmsGSY4xRJUe4bxZ3WJT2oK9hSQpXeXzCnJSDXxvnr3udjspt5Hmsq9hHRuqaxCaSlwnMT38pZ6YpEmZI-q9mlCEmgN4LsLphimntkGn2lUsg__&Key-Pair-Id=K87HJKWMK329B
Thank you for your comment. Yes, indeed, things aren’t black and white. If the tone of the article implied that, it’s not the intention. Rather, it’s to stress this particular perspective. The cartoon you shared sure does provide perspective
Sorry I think my comment could have been a little clearer.
No the tone of the article didn't imply things weren't black and white. I guess what I was trying to say was that even if not all Muslim woman were operating the way described by you, I reckon there is in any event a large amount of it going on because the arguments you have put forward makes a lot of sense.
Yes, this is what I thought you meant. I think I was the one that should have commented clearer. :)
Excellent thanks
Glad you like it
Many original insights in this
My thinking on hijab (in whatever form and insofar as I gave it much thought) used to be that it serves two main psychosocial purposes.
First is its role among women. It protects the fragile vanity of the aged and ugly by levelling differences in appearance among fertile women and making them harder to separate visually from the non-fertile. This lessens (or in cases of full hijab mostly removes) competition for male attention, increasing intergenerational and interaesthetic female solidarity by reducing destructive female gossip-mongering.
Second is its effect on men. It keeps competition for women under control in societies where polygamy is traditional, long predating Islam. In such socieities male competition for the females left over after the Big Man has taken his harem has the potential to result in catastrophic social upheaval. As in the case of women, hijab secures male cohesion.
This piece has, however, made me think again about the function of hijab and other things besides--many thanks.
And again, thank you for your insightful comment.
Yes, thank you for noticing. Many of the insights here are original (as far as I know). They are less like statements and more like calls for discussion and consideration.
As you put it, Islam protects the fragile vanity of insecure women. It levels everything, and does not allow free competition. Reminds you of something? It begins with ‘c’ and ends with ‘ommunism’.
I’ve always said that Islam is Marxism.
This text is too long (I must translate it to understand) to comment in detail your theory, I will be brief.
I share some of the text, but I would have been more nuanced, you omitted the conditioning from childhood, an important component in an analysis of this kind. Having lived some time in the middle of this culture (and religion), I can say that not all women are feminists, nor jealous of the beauty of others. Indeed, some use strategies related to Islam for less glorious interests, and mothers have an important role in the transfer of its interests. However, depending on the personality, it is not too difficult to get rid of conditioning that does not suit us. So there is an abuse of power by men over women, but your presentation is valid as well.
Jealousy exists everywhere, strategies are different, separations more numerous in other cultures.
I absolutely do not share feminism, differences exist, and are wonderful, rights on the other hand, must be defended at all and for all. I find your theory too categorical, Let us do justice to the women of all nations, not using these schemes to mask the beauty of women, and not wishing their psychological imprisonment. Liberation, goodness etc. often first passes through outbursts of all kinds, and even more if one has been restricted in physical or intellectual expression. So if communism there is, it is not generalized, to the point of almost condemning all women in Islam or its environment.
Apart from that, I appreciated welle your presentation, well written but lacking a little objectivity.
I really like the way you write
are you my fav substacker? I don't know lol
only thing I would like to argue is that I have noticed some patterns of resistance from some muslims to the word dictatorship/reserve currency elite logistics
gulf wars, terrorist imposed stigma, and some deaths of politicians are some of these patterns
I have the impression that they are a little bit smarter than the westerners for this reason
Yes, indeed, the average Middle-Easterner has a much better geopolitical understanding than the average Westerner. But neither better than me;)
I don't say the average Muslim, because some Muslims (from Pakistan and Indonesia for example) don't seem to exhibit the same situational awareness.
Thank you for your awesome words!