This was a good read, thanks. Pronatalism is not borne out of love of children. It is motivated entirely by demographic fear and occasionally greed. Female reproductive organs are weapons that fire ammunition-babies. Not having children, particularly for women but also for men, is to help the enemy. The welfare of the children is not a factor. The welfare or fitness of the mother is not a factor. The welfare or fitness of the father is not a factor. It does not matter if the children will grow up in abusive situations or in poverty, or if there are genetic probabilities for illness or deformities or whatever. It does not matter if the parents are suitable partners or parents. All that matters is producing more ammunition for the demographic war. To me this is insane and I dread the lives of children brought into the world by parents who see them primarily as political objects. Are these parents even capable of understanding that their children are human beings? Why would these children, in turn, seek to perpetuate what they're being subjected to? Bonkers.
A very interesting perspective. Most parents I know are self-absorbed narcissists who have kids, not to nurture them, but to use them as a prop for validation. There is nothing noble in being a parent, only in being a great one.
I wouldnt say they're meaningless, but rather archaic. We land objects on other planets and calculate the age of the universe, yet when it comes to such issues we still behave like savages dancing around the fire, dressed in animal furs
It becomes especially evident when you peel away the layers from debates about inter-ethnic/racial relationships. Very quickly, you will discover that its mostly about men wanting access to females of other groups while keeping their "own" women to themselfes... Its all so sad and makes one depressed about the future of mankind.
Since I realized that all my accumulated material wealth is in vain when getting old and immobile (except the money for the nursing home) it neither made me proud to know that my kids will inherit it because I wanted to be „rich“ for myself. So what is the meaning of life then? Animals have to copulate and raise their descendents but we do not. Is this the end of human evolution? The future can only be reproduction through in vitro. You dont get babies anymore. You will be sired by a controlled program from the government. Dystopian movies are more real than you might think. And Antinatalism is the beginning.
Dont forget that we only have this debate because of modern medicine/contraceptives. It would take only a few significant events to have basically the entire developed world go away and then human evolution would instantly set in again, even though results would take a long time to become visible
i never heard of anti natalism until now. I never wanted children because I would not want to bring someone vulnerable, into the world, to be molested and exploited and assaulted and now, being white, blamed for everything in history, from both the left and the right side of the aisle.
What I notice of those that do have children, it is young adults having a child or two to please their parents, keep up with the Joneses, get financial and other help from parents, grandparents and the state. That is 100% the main way it is possible to have and afford to raise children in modern America.
It appears to me, when I look at friends and family, that many parents don't know how to be emotionally healthy, how to relate with their spouse for 20+ years, much less raise children, hence these children fall prey to incest, being molested in some way, by the priest or teacher or doctor, turn to drugs/video games/etc to cope, etc.
The only people HOSTILE to we who never wanted children are parents that had them for the wrong reasons and those child molesters or traffickers disappointed on less prey. That is why there is so much for pregnant women and mothers with young children, because enablers, human traffickers, and pedos are close by...
Any person with common sense cannot blame women that are conscientious and lacks the funds to give the best for their children, hence avoid reproducing. Anyone that hates us for that is insane. And there is a lot of insanity, on all sides.
Brutal! Raw. Thanks, it challenges me. I am s father of four. Having kids (30, 26, 13, 9) has been a wonderful and terrifying path for a once nihilistic person that never planned to have any. This covered many of my darker truths I have faced.
In the end, many mistakes have been/will be made. Hopefully they all end up “better” for the universe than not.
All life, it would seem, has an urgency to reproduce. Often even in less than ideal times.
That was a generalized statement. To be more precise, a vast majority of organisms have a strong inherent drive to reproduce. Modern humans and especially Western humans, being largely removed from ‘nature’ have lost or replaced a significant portion of this drive.
I hypothesize that the dissociation with nature leads to self centred (neurotic) paradigms. Due to the sick nature of these people it may be better that they do not procreate.
Too bad more are not correcting this situation and evolving into a world where this core reality of life can exist as it does for other species.
Parenting with love and awareness is an impetus for moving towards a better reality. The stakes are high but so are the rewards for all life.
At one point in time and still extant in ‘less developed’ lands children (and extended family) were an investment. That is who took care of you in later life or when illness/injury occurred. Deep bonding and providing quality development opportunities for one’s children ensured the best life for the parents and all concerned.
Like you, I love kids and wanted them when I was young.
However, as I learned about the adult world, I saw how difficult it is to get by economically and how the medical industry turns children into pin cushions for dangerous and barely tested shots.
I have enough to worry about besides those things. Even though that is selfish on my part to minimize stress and have more time for myself having kids is also selfish because now you have this precious life that is dependant on the parents to survive.
There is no noble cause here. Perhaps if I had been in a different society, I would have kids. Like you said, everyone's situation is different and in a world where they still poison us with bullshit medications and war and pollution, I rather not bring another life into this.
George Carlin had a good piece about the sanctity of life.
Many good points and everybody on the "right" should read it.
I always disliked these kind of sentiments that "women have to return to have kids", "people must have kids" etc. Nonsense. Nobody should be forced or convinced to do anything.
My life was not an easy one from a mental perspective. Still at the end I have a child. I overcame the bad period and while I still believe an extreme amount of things are crap in the world it does not mean there is nothing good or valuable.
Regarding antinatalism. For me the strange thing is that the people I know and definitely does not want to have kid is the ones grew up in western comfort. So not sure what to make out of it... but if you look at statistics it will prove it too. the most advanced and comfortable societies will have the lowest birth rate.
Since I wrote my comment I have read the horn gate post you referred here. He has many great points and miss many obvious ones. An advanced society which fulfils most of the maslow's pyramid is more likely to come to a correct conclusion regarding reproduction than the one living in poverty and trying to make ends meet... but I see also the noble and meaningful part of raising kids.
One thing is clear: having kids is absolutely not an objective matter.
{..most advanced and comfortable societies will have the lowest birth rate...}
BINGO !!!
They're kept totally busy and distracted with providing enough funds for petty consumerism, pay-off the mortgage and/or credit-card debt, fancy vacations, highly processed foods, funding the MIC and big-pharma ...
Since you supplied no evidence for your own claims, I thought we weren’t playing the “source?” game. Thank you for being the perfect example for my article, the hopelessly triggered by antinatalism. This is you.
Is it antinatalism when you do not approve parents of “reproducing” who know that they have gen-defects? Diabetes e.g. or worse like cerebral infarction (singer Cicero died like his father)? And what about dwarfs wanting to be parents?
Antinatalism was supposed to be the ideology of treating not having children as an ideal. Nowadays, people brand anyone who wasn’t fortunate enough to have kids an antinatalist, even if that isn’t the ideal for them.
I chose not to have kids when i started believing in genetic determination.
Basically your genes make the majority of what you even can become or achieve. Evzeryone should do an honest assessment of how good ones genetic input material is, as that will largely determine how good or bad the life of any offspring would be.
Dont condemn a human to live in misery by congenital issues just because you desperatly wanted to be a parent
Have you heard about the videogame "SOMA"? It delves into the topic of digital immortality (since our personalities are hardly more than bio-chemical software) where personalities are "backed up" by a computer which then runs them in a sort of digital heaven
> A child born to parents who don’t love each other will conclude that it should never have been born in the first place, and will then delve into existential philosophy — the ultimate self-torment.
Yeah.
People hate others for what others reveal in themselves. All hate is self-hate
Thanks for this, you put into words what I've felt most of my life. I'm a 49 year old woman that KNEW, with a strange gut instinct that I was not going to have kids since I was a child. Even when my life was "normal" (no major trauma or abuse) I strongly did not want to have children. My mom dying when I was 12, and then going through some pretty hard times solidified my decision further I'm sure.
As I grew older and didn't feel any desire to procreate, I realized it had nothing to do with being a "feminist" or not meeting the right person (I did) or choosing a demanding career (I didn't) or not being "feminine". Kids melt my beart actually. It was a philosophical/spiritual decision. I feel like I am not meant to birth a new soul into this world. As much as I do see and appreciate the good and love and beauty in this life, the hardship, pain and evil is ever present as well. I don't want to subject an innocent new person to all this. I also do enjoy peace, quiet and plenty of time alone, but I think that is very secondary.
My more out there theory is that life here on earth may not be all there is in the universe and there exist other dimensions that are more "enlightened" shall I say. Being overly attached to this plane through people, possessions, etc is not the way to liberate oneself and possibly end up in a better place. If im wrong and there is no such "multiverse" that's fine too. I don't mind "cutting the cord" through not procreating. It seems moral to me. Everyone has their path.
Thanks for this comment. I wish there were a way to prove and experience other more enlightened dimensions, but there isn’t, unfortunately. We can theorise, but with wat we can experience, this existence is deliberately unkind to its creations.
This was an interesting read. I’ve never thought about antinatalism before, beyond it being a personal choice. I think it’s better to make a conscious decision to not have children, than the alternatives; unwanted children, abortion, etc.
I have three grown children, one grandchild who was an accident. I have never asked the two who have chosen to not procreate why, although I know from their lifestyles that they don’t have the time to raise children. It’s their choice, not mine.
If you were to have a biological imperative to procreate, and done so for untold generations, and then suddenly not procreating becomes the norm instead the fringe, that establishes a pattern of external influence. There is nothing noble in going extinct, shitting on all the blood and sweat and pain ancestors endured to get you where you are. But its a good way as any to remove a people from the genepool. There could be an endless discussion to be had about individuals and their stories pro and contra, but does it matter, in the end, if it is not really a choice.
Oh, no. I am very happy for people not having children. They are welcome to go silently into the forever night. But lets not call it noble, of all the words possible.
Not procreating is not the norm. Nobody claimed it was or it should be. I’ll assume you didn’t read my article.
“going extinct, shitting on all the blood and sweat and pain ancestors endured to get you where you are” Nobody owes anything to their abusive ancestors who just followed their most disgusting instinct to just fuck. Big deal. “To get where you are”. You must have had a very happy and ignorant life.
“remove a people from the genepool.” A psychotic assumption. We all share the same genes. The same genes that have survived for millennia. So what? What manic obsession is this with eugenics? How deluded are you to assume that you genes are “superior”? Get over yourself and your deluded superiority.
You seems spiteful of people who choose not to have children for the noblest of reasons. You prove exactly my entire point in this article. Thank you.
Since I saw a for the first time on a video how a detained man shot himself in the head with his hided gun in a police station it shocked me since to know that some poeple are willing to darken their eyes forever and take their last breath willingly. To make the bridge to antinatalism it made me angry that those who did not raise children were egoistic and had more money than those with kids. No responsibility. No fights and no despair about having „no life“ as a parent because of lack of time and money. So… I do have empathy for suicide (their parents must feel devasted) but not for antinatalism (how dare they). Therefore thanks for slowly beginning to understand antinatalism.
Notice how we tend not to show empathy for the children in both examples: In suicide, we say "poor parents" and blame the child, when in fact, a child that has committed suicide is the ultimate failure for a parent, even if the child is an adult. In antinatalism, we hate the non-parents for "being selfish," but we don't perhaps consider that these people might have spared their potential children a horrible life.
and not considering the opposite that a kid with many (disabled) siblings and raised in povertry might do great things for humanity (music, arts, science). I know one example but forgot who he was.
This was a good read, thanks. Pronatalism is not borne out of love of children. It is motivated entirely by demographic fear and occasionally greed. Female reproductive organs are weapons that fire ammunition-babies. Not having children, particularly for women but also for men, is to help the enemy. The welfare of the children is not a factor. The welfare or fitness of the mother is not a factor. The welfare or fitness of the father is not a factor. It does not matter if the children will grow up in abusive situations or in poverty, or if there are genetic probabilities for illness or deformities or whatever. It does not matter if the parents are suitable partners or parents. All that matters is producing more ammunition for the demographic war. To me this is insane and I dread the lives of children brought into the world by parents who see them primarily as political objects. Are these parents even capable of understanding that their children are human beings? Why would these children, in turn, seek to perpetuate what they're being subjected to? Bonkers.
A very interesting perspective. Most parents I know are self-absorbed narcissists who have kids, not to nurture them, but to use them as a prop for validation. There is nothing noble in being a parent, only in being a great one.
Pronatalism was always just that. "Be fruitfull and multiply" was never more than a thinly veiled "reproduce or be absorbed by rival tribes".
There is hardly a more radicalizing motive than the fear of the demise of ones tribe, which really says a lot about us as a species.
Very well said. It’s an attachment to concepts that arbitrary and kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of things, really
I wouldnt say they're meaningless, but rather archaic. We land objects on other planets and calculate the age of the universe, yet when it comes to such issues we still behave like savages dancing around the fire, dressed in animal furs
Yea, unfortunately, few things indicate that we may be better than just that.
It becomes especially evident when you peel away the layers from debates about inter-ethnic/racial relationships. Very quickly, you will discover that its mostly about men wanting access to females of other groups while keeping their "own" women to themselfes... Its all so sad and makes one depressed about the future of mankind.
Sadly, I agree.
Since I realized that all my accumulated material wealth is in vain when getting old and immobile (except the money for the nursing home) it neither made me proud to know that my kids will inherit it because I wanted to be „rich“ for myself. So what is the meaning of life then? Animals have to copulate and raise their descendents but we do not. Is this the end of human evolution? The future can only be reproduction through in vitro. You dont get babies anymore. You will be sired by a controlled program from the government. Dystopian movies are more real than you might think. And Antinatalism is the beginning.
Dont forget that we only have this debate because of modern medicine/contraceptives. It would take only a few significant events to have basically the entire developed world go away and then human evolution would instantly set in again, even though results would take a long time to become visible
i never heard of anti natalism until now. I never wanted children because I would not want to bring someone vulnerable, into the world, to be molested and exploited and assaulted and now, being white, blamed for everything in history, from both the left and the right side of the aisle.
What I notice of those that do have children, it is young adults having a child or two to please their parents, keep up with the Joneses, get financial and other help from parents, grandparents and the state. That is 100% the main way it is possible to have and afford to raise children in modern America.
It appears to me, when I look at friends and family, that many parents don't know how to be emotionally healthy, how to relate with their spouse for 20+ years, much less raise children, hence these children fall prey to incest, being molested in some way, by the priest or teacher or doctor, turn to drugs/video games/etc to cope, etc.
The only people HOSTILE to we who never wanted children are parents that had them for the wrong reasons and those child molesters or traffickers disappointed on less prey. That is why there is so much for pregnant women and mothers with young children, because enablers, human traffickers, and pedos are close by...
Any person with common sense cannot blame women that are conscientious and lacks the funds to give the best for their children, hence avoid reproducing. Anyone that hates us for that is insane. And there is a lot of insanity, on all sides.
Brutal! Raw. Thanks, it challenges me. I am s father of four. Having kids (30, 26, 13, 9) has been a wonderful and terrifying path for a once nihilistic person that never planned to have any. This covered many of my darker truths I have faced.
In the end, many mistakes have been/will be made. Hopefully they all end up “better” for the universe than not.
All life, it would seem, has an urgency to reproduce. Often even in less than ideal times.
Not all life, apparently.
That was a generalized statement. To be more precise, a vast majority of organisms have a strong inherent drive to reproduce. Modern humans and especially Western humans, being largely removed from ‘nature’ have lost or replaced a significant portion of this drive.
I hypothesize that the dissociation with nature leads to self centred (neurotic) paradigms. Due to the sick nature of these people it may be better that they do not procreate.
Too bad more are not correcting this situation and evolving into a world where this core reality of life can exist as it does for other species.
Parenting with love and awareness is an impetus for moving towards a better reality. The stakes are high but so are the rewards for all life.
this: "Parenting with love and awareness is an impetus for moving towards a better reality. The stakes are high but so are the rewards for all life."
At one point in time and still extant in ‘less developed’ lands children (and extended family) were an investment. That is who took care of you in later life or when illness/injury occurred. Deep bonding and providing quality development opportunities for one’s children ensured the best life for the parents and all concerned.
Like you, I love kids and wanted them when I was young.
However, as I learned about the adult world, I saw how difficult it is to get by economically and how the medical industry turns children into pin cushions for dangerous and barely tested shots.
I have enough to worry about besides those things. Even though that is selfish on my part to minimize stress and have more time for myself having kids is also selfish because now you have this precious life that is dependant on the parents to survive.
There is no noble cause here. Perhaps if I had been in a different society, I would have kids. Like you said, everyone's situation is different and in a world where they still poison us with bullshit medications and war and pollution, I rather not bring another life into this.
George Carlin had a good piece about the sanctity of life.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=M-bLf4F0PM4
Many good points and everybody on the "right" should read it.
I always disliked these kind of sentiments that "women have to return to have kids", "people must have kids" etc. Nonsense. Nobody should be forced or convinced to do anything.
My life was not an easy one from a mental perspective. Still at the end I have a child. I overcame the bad period and while I still believe an extreme amount of things are crap in the world it does not mean there is nothing good or valuable.
Regarding antinatalism. For me the strange thing is that the people I know and definitely does not want to have kid is the ones grew up in western comfort. So not sure what to make out of it... but if you look at statistics it will prove it too. the most advanced and comfortable societies will have the lowest birth rate.
Exactly right, expectably on the last point. Maybe a realisation of an advanced society is that the answer to philosophy: that life is absurd
Since I wrote my comment I have read the horn gate post you referred here. He has many great points and miss many obvious ones. An advanced society which fulfils most of the maslow's pyramid is more likely to come to a correct conclusion regarding reproduction than the one living in poverty and trying to make ends meet... but I see also the noble and meaningful part of raising kids.
One thing is clear: having kids is absolutely not an objective matter.
{..most advanced and comfortable societies will have the lowest birth rate...}
BINGO !!!
They're kept totally busy and distracted with providing enough funds for petty consumerism, pay-off the mortgage and/or credit-card debt, fancy vacations, highly processed foods, funding the MIC and big-pharma ...
No time/power left for basics ... 🤣🤣🤣
but they are soooo advanced ...
Yea, cause all the undeveloped societies with the highest birth rates and the most abusive parenting are swell.
Any more susbstantial evidence for the latter claim ??? ...🤔🤔🤔
Since you supplied no evidence for your own claims, I thought we weren’t playing the “source?” game. Thank you for being the perfect example for my article, the hopelessly triggered by antinatalism. This is you.
Is it antinatalism when you do not approve parents of “reproducing” who know that they have gen-defects? Diabetes e.g. or worse like cerebral infarction (singer Cicero died like his father)? And what about dwarfs wanting to be parents?
Antinatalism was supposed to be the ideology of treating not having children as an ideal. Nowadays, people brand anyone who wasn’t fortunate enough to have kids an antinatalist, even if that isn’t the ideal for them.
I chose not to have kids when i started believing in genetic determination.
Basically your genes make the majority of what you even can become or achieve. Evzeryone should do an honest assessment of how good ones genetic input material is, as that will largely determine how good or bad the life of any offspring would be.
Dont condemn a human to live in misery by congenital issues just because you desperatly wanted to be a parent
I tend to agree. You’d appreciate my essays on free will. https://sotiris.substack.com/p/free-will-oxymoron
Have you heard about the videogame "SOMA"? It delves into the topic of digital immortality (since our personalities are hardly more than bio-chemical software) where personalities are "backed up" by a computer which then runs them in a sort of digital heaven
Interesting take never thought about this from a demographic/political view
> A child born to parents who don’t love each other will conclude that it should never have been born in the first place, and will then delve into existential philosophy — the ultimate self-torment.
Yeah.
People hate others for what others reveal in themselves. All hate is self-hate
Thanks for this, you put into words what I've felt most of my life. I'm a 49 year old woman that KNEW, with a strange gut instinct that I was not going to have kids since I was a child. Even when my life was "normal" (no major trauma or abuse) I strongly did not want to have children. My mom dying when I was 12, and then going through some pretty hard times solidified my decision further I'm sure.
As I grew older and didn't feel any desire to procreate, I realized it had nothing to do with being a "feminist" or not meeting the right person (I did) or choosing a demanding career (I didn't) or not being "feminine". Kids melt my beart actually. It was a philosophical/spiritual decision. I feel like I am not meant to birth a new soul into this world. As much as I do see and appreciate the good and love and beauty in this life, the hardship, pain and evil is ever present as well. I don't want to subject an innocent new person to all this. I also do enjoy peace, quiet and plenty of time alone, but I think that is very secondary.
My more out there theory is that life here on earth may not be all there is in the universe and there exist other dimensions that are more "enlightened" shall I say. Being overly attached to this plane through people, possessions, etc is not the way to liberate oneself and possibly end up in a better place. If im wrong and there is no such "multiverse" that's fine too. I don't mind "cutting the cord" through not procreating. It seems moral to me. Everyone has their path.
I
Thanks for this comment. I wish there were a way to prove and experience other more enlightened dimensions, but there isn’t, unfortunately. We can theorise, but with wat we can experience, this existence is deliberately unkind to its creations.
This was an interesting read. I’ve never thought about antinatalism before, beyond it being a personal choice. I think it’s better to make a conscious decision to not have children, than the alternatives; unwanted children, abortion, etc.
I have three grown children, one grandchild who was an accident. I have never asked the two who have chosen to not procreate why, although I know from their lifestyles that they don’t have the time to raise children. It’s their choice, not mine.
Thank you. It means a lot.
If you were to have a biological imperative to procreate, and done so for untold generations, and then suddenly not procreating becomes the norm instead the fringe, that establishes a pattern of external influence. There is nothing noble in going extinct, shitting on all the blood and sweat and pain ancestors endured to get you where you are. But its a good way as any to remove a people from the genepool. There could be an endless discussion to be had about individuals and their stories pro and contra, but does it matter, in the end, if it is not really a choice.
Oh, no. I am very happy for people not having children. They are welcome to go silently into the forever night. But lets not call it noble, of all the words possible.
Wrong on so many levels:
Not procreating is not the norm. Nobody claimed it was or it should be. I’ll assume you didn’t read my article.
“going extinct, shitting on all the blood and sweat and pain ancestors endured to get you where you are” Nobody owes anything to their abusive ancestors who just followed their most disgusting instinct to just fuck. Big deal. “To get where you are”. You must have had a very happy and ignorant life.
“remove a people from the genepool.” A psychotic assumption. We all share the same genes. The same genes that have survived for millennia. So what? What manic obsession is this with eugenics? How deluded are you to assume that you genes are “superior”? Get over yourself and your deluded superiority.
You seems spiteful of people who choose not to have children for the noblest of reasons. You prove exactly my entire point in this article. Thank you.
You are entitled to have your very own opinion.
Likewise
Since I saw a for the first time on a video how a detained man shot himself in the head with his hided gun in a police station it shocked me since to know that some poeple are willing to darken their eyes forever and take their last breath willingly. To make the bridge to antinatalism it made me angry that those who did not raise children were egoistic and had more money than those with kids. No responsibility. No fights and no despair about having „no life“ as a parent because of lack of time and money. So… I do have empathy for suicide (their parents must feel devasted) but not for antinatalism (how dare they). Therefore thanks for slowly beginning to understand antinatalism.
Notice how we tend not to show empathy for the children in both examples: In suicide, we say "poor parents" and blame the child, when in fact, a child that has committed suicide is the ultimate failure for a parent, even if the child is an adult. In antinatalism, we hate the non-parents for "being selfish," but we don't perhaps consider that these people might have spared their potential children a horrible life.
and not considering the opposite that a kid with many (disabled) siblings and raised in povertry might do great things for humanity (music, arts, science). I know one example but forgot who he was.
True, but for every such example I can name many more that ended up doing to opposite. The question is who are we to decide.
Thanks for your well balanced and informative article on a burning topic !!! 👍👍👍 🔥🔥🔥
Opting-out of procreation is also a political/social decision: NO MORE
- TAXES FOR THE GOVERNMENT,
- PROFITS FOR THE MIC-BIG PHARMA and
- SOLDIERS FOR THE "ELITES" INTEREST !!!
Let's see how they cope when having to deal with their likes only ... 🤣🤣🤣
That's a low level reason